Return-Path: <sentto-279987-2322-1001386301-fc=all.net@returns.onelist.com> Delivered-To: fc@all.net Received: from 204.181.12.215 by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for fc@localhost (single-drop); Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 31121 invoked by uid 510); 25 Sep 2001 02:52:54 -0000 Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (216.115.96.58) by 204.181.12.215 with SMTP; 25 Sep 2001 02:52:54 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-279987-2322-1001386301-fc=all.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.224] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Sep 2001 02:52:33 -0000 X-Sender: fc@big.all.net X-Apparently-To: iwar@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 25 Sep 2001 02:51:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 66771 invoked from network); 25 Sep 2001 02:51:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.224 with QMQP; 25 Sep 2001 02:51:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO big.all.net) (65.0.156.78) by mta3 with SMTP; 25 Sep 2001 02:52:32 -0000 Received: (from fc@localhost) by big.all.net (8.9.3/8.7.3) id TAA14220 for iwar@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:52:31 -0700 Message-Id: <200109250252.TAA14220@big.all.net> To: iwar@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924182256.00b625c0@poptop.llnl.gov> from "Tony Bartoletti" at Sep 24, 2001 06:47:27 PM Organization: I'm not allowed to say X-Mailer: don't even ask X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] From: Fred Cohen <fc@all.net> Mailing-List: list iwar@yahoogroups.com; contact iwar-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list iwar@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:iwar-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 19:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: iwar@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [iwar] - a bit of clarification on the 'facts' Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [FC - When I posted it I knew it was propaganda - but I didn't figure it would generate a response - so here is my take on what Tony noticed.] Per the message sent by Tony Bartoletti: > > Pin the tail...! > > By Tariq A.Al-Maeena, > > Asharq Al Wasat, Sept. 22, 01 ... > >spokesman at the BBC has confirmed use of this old footage by CNN. They > >have copies of such material in their film vaults. > This should be solidly verifiable. If true, those responsible should spend > a very long time in prison. It may be true (I don't know) that the footage was from a historical even, but in fact there were some Palestinain celebrations on the streets and reporters were threatenned if they continued to report on them. Whether the specific depictions were true is another issue. > >Then there is the mystery of the 'no-shows'; those employees who failed > >to show up for work on the day of the bombings. We are talking about Please. 9AM is early for many in the NY financial district. On any given day, in a building with 50,000 employees, you will have something like 500 people not present because of illness or holidays. Add in traffic jams, accidents, etc. and you will find 10% of folks who work there are not in promptly at 9AM - that would be some 5,000 per tower. > >thousands here. And believe me, they are not as tardy as we are in this > >part of the world when it comes to attendance and punctuality. Did this > >not cross anyone's minds? And what about the reports on the 5 Israelis > >atop a high tower who were filming the events as they unfolded, hooting > >and hollering? All we know is that they were eventually deported. How > >convenient! This is, as far as I can tell, purely rumor. Perception management at its height. > The no-shows should be verifiable, to some degree, although most who take > jobs in the WTC do not punch a timeclock. I happened to be surprised > myself that casualties did not reach well into 5 figures. I wonder what > the FEMA estimates for evacuation of the WTC would indicate, > hypothetically, for such an attack. As far as I can tell, the reason my initial estimates were high had two causes. I failed to take into account the effect of the first plane on the second building's population and, the first plany hit pretty high up on the tower. From what I can tell, nobody above the floors where the planes hit at the time they hit survived. In the first tower, the hit was so high that only a few thousand people were above it. In the second tower the hit was lower but the people had already evacuated. Thus 5,000+ people dies in the first tower and a few thousand died after that by not getting out in time, seeking to help others, etc. If the planes would have hit together and closer to the ground it would have been a very different story. > >All four Black Boxes were supposedly destroyed and rendered unusable. > >This in spite of the fact that they are designed specifically for plane > >crashes which result in insurmountable conditions...Yet one of the > >hijackers' passport supposedly survives fire and heat of over 1000 > >degrees Fahrenheit and is found in perfect shape? CNN reported that one > >of the hijackers' passport was in the area 'around' the World Trade > >Center. What kind of idiots do they take us for? > First, I have heard no reports that the boxes have been found yet in the > rubble, no less destroyed or useless. At least three were found - the ones from PA were found and at least one was partially usable. One from the pentagon was found but was not usable. They ar enot designed for high temperatures for long periods, at least not the time frames of sitting in burning jet fuel for 20 minutes or so. It's just beyond their rating. Normally, crashes do not result in the concentration of heat over time like this. > The "passport" question is better, but when the plane went into the > building, parts of the forward compartment (flight cabin) likely were blown > clear through the building and burst out the far side, possibly escaping > the fire-ball produced when the wings dumped their fuel load. I imagine > various body parts we scattered from the initial impact that escaped > destruction in the inferno, and that would most likely include the pilots. You got it Tony. Come parts come out whole, while others get made into littly tiny chunks. It's just how things go. If nothing were found people would be asking how it was possible that absolutely nothing came out whole when something survives almost any crash. ... > >And probably the greatest contradiction in this whole scenario is the > >FBI report that two of the Arabic hijackers were involved in a bar > >altercation in Florida some time before the bombings. This was over the > >price of drinks. Now I've come across some fanatics, and let me assure > >you that not one of them would be preparing to meet his Maker in a state > >of inebriation, or with alcohol coursing through his veins. Makes the > >whole concept of jihad meaningless if you ask me. Or was it simply to > >draw attention to their presence, another red herring if you will? > Hard to say, but it does sound "unlike" behaviors I would have expected. People are not perfect. These things happen all the time. I often hear defense attorney arguments like this, but they are usually just plain ridiculous. The cat is, people are not perfect and they do all sorts of things to screw up - that goes for the FBI and the terrorists and all of us. > >Yes, something is not right here. And consider this...it was only ... Conspiracy theories here we come. According to the 60 minutes interviews with leading Arab journalists last night, while they wish it were not arabs that did these things and they wish it were the Mosad or someone else, the evidence points to arabs and no evidence points toward the Mosad. FC --This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to serve-- Fred Cohen Fred Cohen & Associates.........tel/fax:925-454-0171 fc@all.net The University of New Haven.....http://www.unhca.com/ http://all.net/ Sandia National Laboratories....tel:925-294-2087 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Pinpoint the right security solution for your company- Learn how to add 128- bit encryption and to authenticate your web site with VeriSign's FREE guide! http://us.click.yahoo.com/JNm9_D/33_CAA/yigFAA/kgFolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> ------------------ http://all.net/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.2 : 2001-09-29 21:08:49 PDT