Return-Path: <sentto-279987-4857-1024665307-fc=all.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com> Delivered-To: fc@all.net Received: from 204.181.12.215 [204.181.12.215] by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.7.4) for fc@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7015 invoked by uid 510); 21 Jun 2002 13:15:07 -0000 Received: from n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com (66.218.66.78) by all.net with SMTP; 21 Jun 2002 13:15:07 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-279987-4857-1024665307-fc=all.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.192] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Jun 2002 13:15:07 -0000 X-Sender: fc@red.all.net X-Apparently-To: iwar@onelist.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 21 Jun 2002 13:15:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 19980 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2002 13:15:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Jun 2002 13:15:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO red.all.net) (12.232.72.152) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jun 2002 13:15:06 -0000 Received: (from fc@localhost) by red.all.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g5LDFrM04369 for iwar@onelist.com; Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:15:53 -0700 Message-Id: <200206211315.g5LDFrM04369@red.all.net> To: iwar@onelist.com (Information Warfare Mailing List) Organization: I'm not allowed to say X-Mailer: don't even ask X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] From: Fred Cohen <fc@all.net> X-Yahoo-Profile: fcallnet Mailing-List: list iwar@yahoogroups.com; contact iwar-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list iwar@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:iwar-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [iwar] [fc:Alan.Keyes,.MAKING.SENSE.-.Transcript.for.Tuesday,.June.18/02..(Part.2)] Reply-To: iwar@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.2 required=5.0 tests=RISK_FREE,FREE_MONEY,DIFFERENT_REPLY_TO version=2.20 X-Spam-Level: *** Alan Keyes, MAKING SENSE - Transcript for Tuesday, June 18/02 (Part 2) http://www.msnbc.com/news/769484.asp ...Still to come, the FBI says the American Muslim Council is mainstream and the FBI director is going to speak at its convention. We'll debate that coming up next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) KEYES: Welcome back to MAKING SENSE. I'm Alan Keyes. Later this month, FBI Director Robert Mueller will address the annual convention of the American Muslim Council. The reason? Well, according to his spokesman, the bureau believes that the AMC is, quote, "the most mainstream Muslim group in the United States." Not so, says one of our guests. MSNBC terrorism analyst Steve Emerson wrote about the group in his book, "American Jihad: The Terrorists Living Among Us." Also with us, representing the other side of this debate, Eric Vickers, the executive director of the American Muslim Council. Gentlemen, welcome both of you to MAKING SENSE. And thanks for being with me tonight. I want to start with you, Steve, because there have been a couple of articles in the press today, one by Frank Gaffney, whom my audience is very familiar with, another by Dan Pipes, someone I also know, that raise serious issues about FBI director Mueller addressing the American Muslim Council. And they alluded in both instances to information that you developed and presented in your book. Based on the kind of work that you've done, do you think that it is a proper judgment for FBI Director Mueller to be addressing the American Muslim Council or do you agree with these articles that have raised questions about it? STEVE EMERSON, MSNBC TERRORISM ANALYST: I think given the fact that the FBI spokesperson already declared the AMC to be a mainstream group, I think it's very troubling that the FBI director would extend legitimacy to an organization that has defended the Sudan, that has defended - whose officials have defended Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, have refused to condemn suicide bombings by the perpetrators, have called - whose officials have called for support for militant Islamic fundamentalist action against American allies. I think this all betrays a whole radical line by an organization that should not be receiving legitimacy by the head of the FBI. In fact, the Web site of the American Muslim Council, until 9/11, had a special section that said don't talk to the FBI. They're your enemy. So, I think it's rather curious and especially in the light of the fact that you can obtain a lot of this information on the Web. So I don't know why the FBI's office didn't do the due diligence it was supposed to do. KEYES: Now, when you talk - allude to these kinds of contacts and links with different terrorist groups, what exactly are you talking about? What kind of relationship are we dealing with here? EMERSON: OK, well, first of all, let's be very specific here. Abdel Rahman Alamudi (ph), who is currently the secretary of the board of directors and who was its president, has openly stated in rallies and conferences that he supports Hamas and Hezbollah. No. 2, the organization itself has defended Musef Marzouk (ph), the head of the political bureau of Hamas. No. 3, it's condemned the incarceration of the blind sheik behind the World Trade Center bombing in 1993 as being somehow linked to the fact that he was Muslim as opposed to the fact that he was a terrorist. No. 4, the current head, president Mr. Vickers himself, is on the articles of incorporation for the Islamic African Relief Agency. That's a group that the state department delisted last year or the year before because of its known unsavory ties and suspected ties to potential terrorist groups. So I think we have a real problem here. It's a litany. I have a paper here with about 15 pages that is just page after page of ties to terrorist groups or support for terrorist groups. And I think it betrays the real interest of moderate Muslims around the world and it discredits genuine moderate Muslim leaders in the U.S. for the FBI director to be giving his blessing to this group. KEYES: Now, Eric Vickers, what do you say to those who look at some of these past actions and activities and see a group that's far from being the moderate group you claim is, in fact, a group that has a lot of sympathy for and gives support to the very terrorist groups that seem to be involved in attacks against us? ERIC VICKERS, AMERICAN MUSLIM COUNCIL: If the issue were not so serious, it would almost be laughable to be characterizing the American Muslim Council as a terrorist or semi-terrorist organization. It is, in fact, a very mainstream organization that has existed since 1990. What the AMC stands for is to help the 7 million Muslims who live in this country as citizens, to effectively participate in this country's civic and political life. It also seeks to educate this country about Islam. Just recently, the AMC mailed out several thousand pamphlets to elected leaders, state, local and federal, to acquaint them with Islam. So what the AMC has attempted to do, as most of the Muslim organizations here, is to give America a good sense of Islam and to have Muslims participate in the government. Now, what always happens when we attempt to do that is we have Mr. Emerson and those who steadily try to attack the organization, who try to characterize and paint it as some sort of terrorist group, just as during the civil rights movement, the government tried to paint the SCLC and the civil right organizations as subversive groups, when in fact what we are attempting to do is very American. KEYES: But, but... VICKERS: And actually - actually... KEYES: Is it - let me ask you a question. VICKERS: Actually - yes. KEYES: Are you saying, then, that the facts that have been cited where individuals have expressed their support, like Mr. Alamudi (ph), for Hezbollah, for instance, and have said that that in fact represents what they believe is the right course for Muslims, and have had associations with other groups that have been clearly identified as terroristic in nature. Are you denying all of those things? Those facts are untrue? VICKERS: Well, the tactic that is clearly being used is guilt by association. Mr. Alamudi made statements and he clarified those in an article in the "Washington Post." And what he said very clearly is that he does not condone terrorism. He condemns it. The AMC has consistently condemned acts of terrorism, has consistently condemned suicide violence. But what he has said is that he supports the Palestinian movement. He supports having a Palestinian state. EMERSON: No, he said he supports Hamas. VICKERS: He supports the Palestinian movement. EMERSON: He didn't say - he said he supports Hamas and he said he supports Hezbollah, No. 1. No. 2, an organization can only... VICKERS: In his article - may I speak, please? (CROSSTALK) KEYES: Eric, just a second. VICKERS: May I speak, please? KEYES: No. Let Steve finish what he's saying and then I'll get back to you. EMERSON: I'm just going to say, an organization can only be judged by the actions it takes. The American Muslim Council openly stated that the decision to close down the Holy Land Foundation, which was designated as a terrorist front for Hamas, specifically by the president last November, it defended the Holy Land Foundation and claimed that the closing down of the Holy Land Foundation was an act of racism against the Muslim community. That's ridiculous. In fact, what I find here, what is emblematic of the problem is that since 9/11, people have asked why did 9/11 occur? It's because of the deception by radical Islamic groups posing under the veneer of false, moderate images that try to project a disingenuous image of moderation when, in fact, every single fact that I'm stating here can be supported by a footnote, a video, an audio file. I mean, I don't understand... KEYES: Let me raise a question though for our guest, because you say that this is all about guilt by association. But in terms of things like terrorism, if one attends a meeting that involves a whole lot of folks who come from these destructive organizations. As I understand, Mr. Alamudi at one stage did. That's not guilt by association because you're sitting down with a bunch of people who have been shown to mean America no good. Doesn't one have to be careful about associations with those who are out to kill your fellow citizens? VICKERS: Well, what I'm saying is several things. One, if you want to get an accurate picture of AMC, then one should really read the book of former congressman Paul Finley (ph), "Silence No More," when he talks about the role the AMC has played, the very positive role it has played in this country in terms of bringing Islam to light. As far as guilt by association, what Mr. Emerson and others continue to try to do is to attribute to AMC statements made by others. The President Bush is bosom buddies with the president of Enron, but that doesn't make George Bush a crook. Just because Alamudi has made some statements, which he has clarified, that should not be attributed to AMC. KEYES: Well, we're running out of time in this segment. I'll be right back, however, with both of you to explore a little further some of the facts and allegations that have been brought forward. And later, my "Outrage of the Day," where we see a problem we've been talking about in the Catholic church that possibly exists sadly in our educational system at large. But first, does this make sense? Ted Turner, the billionaire founder of CNN, accuses Israel today of being involved in terrorism against the Palestinians. In London's "Guardian" newspaper, he said, quote, "the Palestinians are fighting with human suicide bombers. That's all they have. The Israelis, they've got one of the most powerful military machines in the world. The Palestinians have nothing. So who are the terrorists? I would make a case that both sides are involved in terrorism." Now, with his usual logic, Mr. Turner has told us that if you are a powerful military, then you're a terrorist. Now, what is the most powerful military structure on the face of the planet? Why, it's the United States. By Mr. Turner's reasoning, the United States would then be the premier terrorist power in the world, which is exactly what Osama bin Laden has said about us. So I suppose Mr. Turner agrees with Mr. Bin Laden and the bombing of the World Trade Center was all that he had left to him faced with the terrible terrorist power of the United States. I think that Ted Turner, he's one of the richest men in the world. He's bidding to be labeled as one of stupidest men in the world. Does that make sense? (COMMERCIAL BREAK) KEYES: We're back with Eric Vickers and Steve Emerson. We have a couple minutes left. I want to go quickly to Steve Emerson because the articles that were written today suggested that FBI Director Mueller should not be addressing and going to lunch with folks who the FBI may have to be investigating on account of these past and terroristic ties and their implications. Do you agree with that appraisal? EMERSON: Unfortunately, yes. I think that this only anoints legitimacy. It's like speaking to the Ku Klux Klan. I mean, one would expect that the FBI director wouldn't speak to a radical group. And if they did, they would clearly state ahead of time we violently disagree with its agenda and demand that this group renounce terrorism not just in general, as Mr. Vickers said, buy specifically by name, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Islamic fundamentalism, Osama bin Laden, all by name, and as a price to the admission to the club of, quote, "mainstream groups." We haven't seen that. Instead, in the past, FBI officials have spoken to the American Muslim Council as if they were the equivalent of rotary clubs. I think that, essentially, it legitimizes militant Islam and it does a disservice to the vast majority of Muslims who don't believe in this. KEYES: Eric Vickers, we have about a minute left. Do you think that that's a fair appraisal? And what is your response? Will you specifically condemn these groups that practice terrorism? VICKERS: Mr. Emerson's thinking is more dangerous to America than terrorism. What he is seeking to do is to stifle the voices of 7 million American citizens, to tell them they do not have a right to meet with a public servant, the director of the FBI, when the FBI is impacting the Muslim community and Middle Easterners more than any other group in this country. Mr. Emerson would deny American citizens a chance to have a dialogue with the director of the Justice Department. That is dangerous thinking. That is dangerous for America. KEYES: Well, I have to say, Eric, and listening to both of you, I think we as citizens have a responsibility, though, especially in our present situation, to make sure that our groups, that our actions are not going to aid and abet those who have declared themselves to be and have acted outrageously as the mortal enemies of the United States of America. I think that that is a dangerous way to behave. And I think that... VICKERS: Yes, but we have to make informed judgments. KEYES: ... all of us to one - Eric, we owe it to one another. VICKERS: We have to make informed judgments. KEYES: We owe it to one another to step away from those activities, clearly condemn them so that we can all work together in the confidence that we are fighting together against this common enemy. And I think... VICKERS: And we absolutely agree. KEYES: ... that all of us have that obligation. VICKERS: We absolutely agree. KEYES: So, I want to thank you both. I really appreciate it. VICKERS: Thank you very much. KEYES: We've come to the end of our time, but I think it's fair to lay that before the American people. We all have to make our judgments. Next, my "Outrage of the Day." And if you want to make even more sense, sign up for our free daily newsletter at our Web site KEYES.MSNBC.COM. Each day in your mailbox, you'll get show topics, my weekly column, and links to my favorite articles of the day. I'll be right back to talk about the problem that may be emerging amongst our schools now, reflecting the kind of difficulties we've seen in the Catholic church. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) KEYES: Now time for my "Outrage of the Day." In the last little while, we know that the nation has been shocked and pained by the spectacle of priests who abuse their situation of confidence in order to assault the dignity of young children. According to today's "New York Times," Duane C. Johnson (ph) turned up in southern Nevada nine years ago to work with the most troubled students in Nevada. When a job opened at Child Haven, a shelter for neglected children, school administrators did not hesitate to send him over. Within a year, however, a 13-year-old girl stepped forward to accuse Mr. Johnson of repeatedly exposing himself and groping her. Only then did local school administrators learn what really cost Mr. Johnson his last job in Utah, accusations by school officials that he had impregnated a student there in her senior year. Clark County's experience is hardly unusual when teachers are accused of sexual abuse. Educators and law enforcement authorities say districts often rid themselves of the problem by agreeing to keep quiet if the teacher moves on, sometimes even offering them a financial settlement. Well, this report in the "New York Times" is deeply disturbing. We've seen what terrible consequences have resulted for the Catholic church because of this kind of a policy of looking the other way instead of dealing with what is needed to protect our children. I think we better get on top of this in our schools and everywhere else. That's my sense of it. Thanks. "THE NEWS WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS" is up next. I'll see you tomorrow. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/kgFolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> ------------------ http://all.net/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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