[iwar] [fc:Alan.Keyes,.MAKING.SENSE.-.Transcript.for.Tuesday,.June.18/02..(Part.2)]

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Date: 2002-06-21 06:15:53


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Subject: [iwar] [fc:Alan.Keyes,.MAKING.SENSE.-.Transcript.for.Tuesday,.June.18/02..(Part.2)]
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Alan Keyes, MAKING SENSE - Transcript for Tuesday, June 18/02  (Part 2)

 http://www.msnbc.com/news/769484.asp

 ...Still to come, the FBI says the American Muslim Council is
mainstream and the FBI director is going to speak at its convention. 
We'll debate that coming up next. 

       (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

       KEYES: Welcome back to MAKING SENSE. I'm Alan Keyes.

       Later this month, FBI Director Robert Mueller will address the
annual convention of the American Muslim Council.  The reason? Well,
according to his spokesman, the bureau believes that the AMC is, quote,
"the most mainstream Muslim group in the United States."

       Not so, says one of our guests.  MSNBC terrorism analyst Steve
Emerson wrote about the group in his book, "American Jihad: The
Terrorists Living Among Us." Also with us, representing the other side

of this debate, Eric Vickers, the executive director of the American
Muslim Council.  Gentlemen, welcome both of you to MAKING SENSE.  And
thanks for being with me tonight. 

       I want to start with you, Steve, because there have been a couple
of articles in the press today, one by Frank Gaffney, whom my audience
is very familiar with, another by Dan Pipes, someone I also know, that
raise serious issues about FBI director Mueller addressing the American
Muslim Council.  And they alluded in both instances to information that
you developed and presented in your book. 

       Based on the kind of work that you've done, do you think that it
is a proper judgment for FBI Director Mueller to be addressing the
American Muslim Council or do you agree with these articles that have
raised questions about it?

       STEVE EMERSON, MSNBC TERRORISM ANALYST: I think given the fact
that the FBI spokesperson already declared the AMC to be a mainstream
group, I think it's very troubling that the FBI director would extend
legitimacy to an organization that has defended the Sudan, that has
defended - whose officials have defended Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic
Jihad, have refused to condemn suicide bombings by the perpetrators,
have called - whose officials have called for support for militant
Islamic fundamentalist action against American allies. 

       I think this all betrays a whole radical line by an organization
that should not be receiving legitimacy by the head of the FBI.  In
fact, the Web site of the American Muslim Council, until 9/11, had a
special section that said don't talk to the FBI.  They're your enemy. 
So, I think it's rather curious and especially in the light of the fact
that you can obtain a lot of this information on the Web.  So I don't
know why the FBI's office didn't do the due diligence it was supposed to
do. 

       KEYES: Now, when you talk - allude to these kinds of contacts and
links with different terrorist groups, what exactly are you talking
about? What kind of relationship are we dealing with here?

       EMERSON: OK, well, first of all, let's be very specific here. 
Abdel Rahman Alamudi (ph), who is currently the secretary of the board
of directors and who was its president, has openly stated in rallies and
conferences that he supports Hamas and Hezbollah.  No.  2, the
organization itself has defended Musef Marzouk (ph), the head of the
political bureau of Hamas. 

       No.  3, it's condemned the incarceration of the blind sheik
behind the World Trade Center bombing in 1993 as being somehow linked to
the fact that he was Muslim as opposed to the fact that he was a
terrorist.  No.  4, the current head, president Mr.  Vickers himself, is
on the articles of incorporation for the Islamic African Relief Agency. 
That's a group that the state department delisted last year or the year
before because of its known unsavory ties and suspected ties to
potential terrorist groups. 

       So I think we have a real problem here.  It's a litany.  I have a
paper here with about 15 pages that is just page after page of ties to
terrorist groups or support for terrorist groups.  And I think it
betrays the real interest of moderate Muslims around the world and it
discredits genuine moderate Muslim leaders in the U.S.  for the FBI
director to be giving his blessing to this group. 

       KEYES: Now, Eric Vickers, what do you say to those who look at
some of these past actions and activities and see a group that's far
from being the moderate group you claim is, in fact, a group that has a
lot of sympathy for and gives support to the very terrorist groups that
seem to be involved in attacks against us?

       ERIC VICKERS, AMERICAN MUSLIM COUNCIL: If the issue were not so
serious, it would almost be laughable to be characterizing the American
Muslim Council as a terrorist or semi-terrorist organization.  It is, in
fact, a very mainstream organization that has existed since 1990. 

       What the AMC stands for is to help the 7 million Muslims who live
in this country as citizens, to effectively participate in this
country's civic and political life.  It also seeks to educate this
country about Islam. 

       Just recently, the AMC mailed out several thousand pamphlets to
elected leaders, state, local and federal, to acquaint them with Islam. 
So what the AMC has attempted to do, as most of the Muslim organizations
here, is to give America a good sense of Islam and to have Muslims
participate in the government. 

       Now, what always happens when we attempt to do that is we have
Mr.  Emerson and those who steadily try to attack the organization, who
try to characterize and paint it as some sort of terrorist group, just
as during the civil rights movement, the government tried to paint the
SCLC and the civil right organizations as subversive groups, when in
fact what we are attempting to do is very American. 

       KEYES: But, but... 

       VICKERS: And actually - actually... 

       KEYES: Is it - let me ask you a question. 

       VICKERS: Actually - yes. 

       KEYES: Are you saying, then, that the facts that have been cited
where individuals have expressed their support, like Mr.  Alamudi (ph),
for Hezbollah, for instance, and have said that that in fact represents
what they believe is the right course for Muslims, and have had
associations with other groups that have been clearly identified as
terroristic in nature.  Are you denying all of those things? Those facts
are untrue?

       VICKERS: Well, the tactic that is clearly being used is guilt by
association.  Mr.  Alamudi made statements and he clarified those in an
article in the "Washington Post." And what he said very clearly is that
he does not condone terrorism.  He condemns it.  The AMC has
consistently condemned acts of terrorism, has consistently condemned
suicide violence.  But what he has said is that he supports the
Palestinian movement.  He supports having a Palestinian state. 

       EMERSON: No, he said he supports Hamas.

       VICKERS: He supports the Palestinian movement.

       EMERSON: He didn't say - he said he supports Hamas and he said he
supports Hezbollah, No.  1.  No.  2, an organization can only... 

       VICKERS: In his article - may I speak, please?

       (CROSSTALK)

       KEYES: Eric, just a second. 

       VICKERS: May I speak, please?

       KEYES: No.  Let Steve finish what he's saying and then I'll get
back to you. 

       EMERSON: I'm just going to say, an organization can only be
judged by the actions it takes.  The American Muslim Council openly
stated that the decision to close down the Holy Land Foundation, which
was designated as a terrorist front for Hamas, specifically by the
president last November, it defended the Holy Land Foundation and
claimed that the closing down of the Holy Land Foundation was an act of
racism against the Muslim community. 

       That's ridiculous.  In fact, what I find here, what is emblematic
of the problem is that since 9/11, people have asked why did 9/11 occur?
It's because of the deception by radical Islamic groups posing under the
veneer of false, moderate images that try to project a disingenuous
image of moderation when, in fact, every single fact that I'm stating
here can be supported by a footnote, a video, an audio file.  I mean, I
don't understand... 

       KEYES: Let me raise a question though for our guest, because you
say that this is all about guilt by association.  But in terms of things
like terrorism, if one attends a meeting that involves a whole lot of
folks who come from these destructive organizations.  As I understand,
Mr.  Alamudi at one stage did.  That's not guilt by association because
you're sitting down with a bunch of people who have been shown to mean
America no good.  Doesn't one have to be careful about associations with
those who are out to kill your fellow citizens?

       VICKERS: Well, what I'm saying is several things.  One, if you
want to get an accurate picture of AMC, then one should really read the
book of former congressman Paul Finley (ph), "Silence No More," when he
talks about the role the AMC has played, the very positive role it has
played in this country in terms of bringing Islam to light. 

       As far as guilt by association, what Mr.  Emerson and others
continue to try to do is to attribute to AMC statements made by others. 
The President Bush is bosom buddies with the president of Enron, but
that doesn't make George Bush a crook.  Just because Alamudi has made
some statements, which he has clarified, that should not be attributed
to AMC. 

       KEYES: Well, we're running out of time in this segment.  I'll be
right back, however, with both of you to explore a little further some
of the facts and allegations that have been brought forward. 

       And later, my "Outrage of the Day," where we see a problem we've
been talking about in the Catholic church that possibly exists sadly in
our educational system at large. 

       But first, does this make sense? Ted Turner, the billionaire
founder of CNN, accuses Israel today of being involved in terrorism
against the Palestinians.  In London's "Guardian" newspaper, he said,
quote, "the Palestinians are fighting with human suicide bombers. 
That's all they have.  The Israelis, they've got one of the most
powerful military machines in the world.  The Palestinians have nothing. 
So who are the terrorists? I would make a case that both sides are
involved in terrorism."

       Now, with his usual logic, Mr.  Turner has told us that if you
are a powerful military, then you're a terrorist.  Now, what is the most
powerful military structure on the face of the planet? Why, it's the
United States.  By Mr.  Turner's reasoning, the United States would then
be the premier terrorist power in the world, which is exactly what Osama
bin Laden has said about us. 

       So I suppose Mr.  Turner agrees with Mr.  Bin Laden and the
bombing of the World Trade Center was all that he had left to him faced
with the terrible terrorist power of the United States.  I think that
Ted Turner, he's one of the richest men in the world.  He's bidding to
be labeled as one of stupidest men in the world.  Does that make sense?

       (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

       KEYES: We're back with Eric Vickers and Steve Emerson. 

       We have a couple minutes left.  I want to go quickly to Steve
Emerson because the articles that were written today suggested that FBI
Director Mueller should not be addressing and going to lunch with folks
who the FBI may have to be investigating on account of these past and
terroristic ties and their implications.  Do you agree with that
appraisal?

       EMERSON: Unfortunately, yes.  I think that this only anoints
legitimacy.  It's like speaking to the Ku Klux Klan.  I mean, one would
expect that the FBI director wouldn't speak to a radical group.  And if
they did, they would clearly state ahead of time we violently disagree
with its agenda and demand that this group renounce terrorism not just
in general, as Mr.  Vickers said, buy specifically by name, Hamas,
Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Islamic fundamentalism, Osama bin Laden, all
by name, and as a price to the admission to the club of, quote,
"mainstream groups."

       We haven't seen that.  Instead, in the past, FBI officials have
spoken to the American Muslim Council as if they were the equivalent of
rotary clubs.  I think that, essentially, it legitimizes militant Islam
and it does a disservice to the vast majority of Muslims who don't
believe in this. 

       KEYES: Eric Vickers, we have about a minute left.  Do you think
that that's a fair appraisal? And what is your response? Will you
specifically condemn these groups that practice terrorism?

       VICKERS: Mr.  Emerson's thinking is more dangerous to America
than terrorism.  What he is seeking to do is to stifle the voices of 7
million American citizens, to tell them they do not have a right to meet
with a public servant, the director of the FBI, when the FBI is
impacting the Muslim community and Middle Easterners more than any other
group in this country. 

       Mr.  Emerson would deny American citizens a chance to have a
dialogue with the director of the Justice Department.  That is dangerous
thinking.  That is dangerous for America. 

       KEYES: Well, I have to say, Eric, and listening to both of you, I
think we as citizens have a responsibility, though, especially in our
present situation, to make sure that our groups, that our actions are
not going to aid and abet those who have declared themselves to be and
have acted outrageously as the mortal enemies of the United States of
America.  I think that that is a dangerous way to behave.  And I think
that... 

       VICKERS: Yes, but we have to make informed judgments. 

       KEYES: ...  all of us to one - Eric, we owe it to one another. 

       VICKERS: We have to make informed judgments. 

       KEYES: We owe it to one another to step away from those
activities, clearly condemn them so that we can all work together in the
confidence that we are fighting together against this common enemy.  And
I think... 

       VICKERS: And we absolutely agree. 

       KEYES: ...  that all of us have that obligation. 

       VICKERS: We absolutely agree. 

       KEYES: So, I want to thank you both.  I really appreciate it. 

       VICKERS: Thank you very much. 

       KEYES: We've come to the end of our time, but I think it's fair
to lay that before the American people.  We all have to make our
judgments. 

       Next, my "Outrage of the Day." And if you want to make even more
sense, sign up for our free daily newsletter at our Web site
KEYES.MSNBC.COM.  Each day in your mailbox, you'll get show topics, my
weekly column, and links to my favorite articles of the day. 

       I'll be right back to talk about the problem that may be emerging
amongst our schools now, reflecting the kind of difficulties we've seen
in the Catholic church.  Stay with us. 

       (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

       KEYES: Now time for my "Outrage of the Day."

       In the last little while, we know that the nation has been
shocked and pained by the spectacle of priests who abuse their situation
of confidence in order to assault the dignity of young children. 

       According to today's "New York Times," Duane C.  Johnson (ph)
turned up in southern Nevada nine years ago to work with the most
troubled students in Nevada.  When a job opened at Child Haven, a
shelter for neglected children, school administrators did not hesitate
to send him over. 

       Within a year, however, a 13-year-old girl stepped forward to
accuse Mr.  Johnson of repeatedly exposing himself and groping her. 
Only then did local school administrators learn what really cost Mr. 
Johnson his last job in Utah, accusations by school officials that he
had impregnated a student there in her senior year. 

       Clark County's experience is hardly unusual when teachers are
accused of sexual abuse.  Educators and law enforcement authorities say
districts often rid themselves of the problem by agreeing to keep quiet
if the teacher moves on, sometimes even offering them a financial
settlement. 

       Well, this report in the "New York Times" is deeply disturbing. 
We've seen what terrible consequences have resulted for the Catholic
church because of this kind of a policy of looking the other way instead
of dealing with what is needed to protect our children.  I think we
better get on top of this in our schools and everywhere else. 

       That's my sense of it.  Thanks.  "THE NEWS WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS"
is up next.  I'll see you tomorrow. 

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