Return-Path: <sentto-279987-4417-1012575222-fc=all.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com> Delivered-To: fc@all.net Received: from 204.181.12.215 [204.181.12.215] by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.7.4) for fc@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 01 Feb 2002 06:57:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8063 invoked by uid 510); 1 Feb 2002 14:53:27 -0000 Received: from n12.groups.yahoo.com (216.115.96.62) by all.net with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 14:53:27 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-279987-4417-1012575222-fc=all.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.162] by n12.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2002 14:53:46 -0000 X-Sender: fc@red.all.net X-Apparently-To: iwar@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_1_3); 1 Feb 2002 14:53:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 34184 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 14:53:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2002 14:53:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO red.all.net) (12.232.72.98) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 14:53:41 -0000 Received: (from fc@localhost) by red.all.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g11Est131980 for iwar@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 06:54:55 -0800 Message-Id: <200202011454.g11Est131980@red.all.net> To: iwar@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <72222DC86846D411ABD300A0C9EB08A1079C32E8@csoc-mail-box.csoconline.com> from "Leo, Ross" at Feb 01, 2002 08:38:45 AM Organization: I'm not allowed to say X-Mailer: don't even ask X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] From: Fred Cohen <fc@all.net> X-Yahoo-Profile: fcallnet Mailing-List: list iwar@yahoogroups.com; contact iwar-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list iwar@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:iwar-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 06:54:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [iwar] [fc:FBI.Raid.Silences.Teen.Anarchist's.Site] Reply-To: iwar@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Per the message sent by Leo, Ross: ... > I remain unconvinced that, at least in the West, many people (even in these > underground circles) regard martyrdom as noble. Frequently, they think it > foolish and unnecessary. I thought I noticed in Austin's comments a bit of > the martyr's drumbeat. Such rhetoric is tiresome, and I think in his case > purely self-serving, with no nobility or altruism whatever. Given that, he > has no credibility whatever, and denigrates the cause he claims. > To many he will sound too much like those others crying "Death to America" > elsewhere in the world, and thus be written off as misguided, disloyal, > un-American, etc. Such people have no sympathetic audience here these days, > and this young man will not be the one who changes that. I agree completely with your basic notion - that this site will do nothing to change the world. But free speech is about the notion that he should be able to expose his ideas in the great marketplace of ideas. I would far rather have his site available so that people who look at it can judge it as foolishness than to close it and turn it into the desirable unknown. In terms of disloyalty - unAmerican - I have cause to disagree with this notion. I think those who remove such a site are the ones who are disloyal and unAmerican. After all, loyalty would mean standing up for the freedom to express your ideas, and any true patriot would see that we need dissent to remain free. The loyal opposition is the most desirable thing we have in the United States. And what makes the opposition loyal is their ability to air their grievances in the public marketplace without fear of oppression. There are, of course, limits. For example, insighting to riot or crying 'fire' in a crowded thater when there is no fire (the second part is really important and often forgotten). But publishing anything over the Internet that could be publishedin a book sound to me like free speech. The anarchists cookbook is widely available and for sale and has been for many years. It includes good descriptions of how to make explosive devices, how to break into cars, and on and on. The same thing should be available over the Internet without restrictions. The truth of the matter is, and the introduction to The Anarchist's Cookbook says this explicitly, the terrorists already know how to make a bomb. There is public benefit in all of us understanding how these things work - if only so we know what we are looking at when we see someone doing it. FC --This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended to serve-- Fred Cohen Fred Cohen & Associates.........tel/fax:925-454-0171 fc@all.net The University of New Haven.....http://www.unhca.com/ http://all.net/ Sandia National Laboratories....tel:925-294-2087 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sponsored by VeriSign - The Value of Trust Secure all your Web servers now - with a proven 5-part strategy. 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This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.2 : 2002-12-31 02:15:03 PST