Return-Path: <sentto-279987-1407-994719694-fc=all.net@returns.onelist.com> Delivered-To: fc@all.net Received: from 204.181.12.215 by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for fc@localhost (single-drop); Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 14851 invoked by uid 510); 9 Jul 2001 22:03:53 -0000 Received: from hp.egroups.com (208.50.99.201) by 204.181.12.215 with SMTP; 9 Jul 2001 22:03:53 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-279987-1407-994719694-fc=all.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jul 2001 23:01:34 -0000 X-Sender: azb@llnl.gov X-Apparently-To: iwar@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 9 Jul 2001 23:01:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 98838 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2001 23:01:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Jul 2001 23:01:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-1.llnl.gov) (128.115.250.81) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Jul 2001 23:01:32 -0000 Received: from poptop.llnl.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp-1.llnl.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3/LLNL-gateway-1.0) with ESMTP id QAA12909 for <iwar@yahoogroups.com>; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 16:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from catalyst.llnl.gov (catalyst.llnl.gov [128.115.222.68]) by poptop.llnl.gov (8.8.8/LLNL-3.0.2/pop.llnl.gov-5.1) with ESMTP id QAA22137 for <iwar@yahoogroups.com>; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 16:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010709155750.00b16d30@poptop.llnl.gov> X-Sender: e048786@poptop.llnl.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: iwar@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <200107051208.FAA09520@big.all.net> References: <3B4456D6.F883AE03@mitre.org> From: Tony Bartoletti <azb@llnl.gov> Mailing-List: list iwar@yahoogroups.com; contact iwar-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list iwar@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:iwar-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:11:03 -0700 Reply-To: iwar@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [iwar] Critical Mass to wage IW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 05:08 AM 7/5/01 -0700, you wrote: >Per the message sent by Dan Ellis: > > > I have heard statements from many in the computer security and > > information warfare that waging information warfare requires the > > resources of a nation state. Can anybody explain why a terrorist group, > > a single security professional, or a small group of "hobbyists" couldn't > > mount the resources necessary to wage information warfare? Maybe I am > > alone in believing that a small, trained, coordinated group could pull > > off at least a significant offensive for a short period of time. > >I think it's pretty clear that 'a small, trained, coordinated group >could pull off at least a significant offensive for a short period of >time.', but that is not the same as waging a war. A single individual >can take a machine gun or a mortar and kill a lot of people pretty >quickly, and we don't call that a war either. It is difficult to apply the term "war" to situations where guts are not spilling out everywhere. How strong the offensive, and how long the duration, does depend upon resources. And a nation-state will generally have a lot more resources. But ... The real point is that the force-difference is greatly reduced. In ordinary warfare, a nation with n-times more resources might be able to inflict n-times the damage over the long haul. With cyber-warfare, perhaps only a log(n) factor is required. Fifty ordinary "hackers" can produce some damage and a lot of noise. But a dedicated fifty "master criminals" with deep pockets and a degree of patient preparation may be able to produce damage many magnitudes greater than the fifty script-kiddies, no matter how sophisticated those scripts might be. As Fred points out below, the damage depends on knowing more than just "I can disrupt some systems", but rather, "this is the system that controls the dispatch of (trains, natural gas, etc.,) and by diverting the flow in just this way, I can cause n-times as many casualties". A well-funded group can sustain a battle by employing "disposable" gear, stolen accounts, etc. ___tony___ > > What resources are needed in order to wage a significant > offensive? I > > suggest the following resources: 1) training/competency, 2) time, 3) > > computer software & hardware, 4) a connection to the internet. > >Sure. How about an objective and intelligence with respect to that >objective? Tony Bartoletti 925-422-3881 <azb@llnl.gov> Information Operations, Warfare and Assurance Center Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Livermore, CA 94551-9900 ------------------ http://all.net/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.2 : 2001-09-29 21:08:37 PDT